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PANEL DISCUSSION
Participants:
Ryan Hagemann, Niskanen Center
Andrew McAfee, Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Michael R. Strain, AEI
Luigi Zingales, George J. Stigler Center for the
Study of the Economy and the State at the
University of Chicago
JAMES PETHOKOUKIS:
Welcome.
Thanks for coming
here on the first working day after Thanksgiving.
Of course, I had a
great fear nobody would show up, being the first working day after
Thanksgiving, so I’m especially grateful everyone made it here for
our panel, which we have a great panel here who I’ll introduce in
a moment.
A decade ago, the
world’s five largest companies by market value were Microsoft,
Exxon Mobile, General Electric, Citigroup and Shell Oil.
Today, Microsoft is
still there, but the rest are all tech firms: Apple, Alphabet (the
parent company of Google), Amazon, and Facebook, though, on some
days, I think Facebook swaps with Alibaba.
So those are now the
top five.
And combined, they
have a market value of $3.5 trillion.
They have powered
the market’s rally this year, leaving some to wonder if owning
these stocks is all you really need to do when investing.
But it’s not just
their size and market performance that’s been impressive.
It’s also their
market dominance.
Google has 76
percent of the search ad market; 80 percent of total searches
worldwide are done through Google.
Facebook and its
subsidiaries own 77 percent of mobile social traffic.
Amazon has
three-quarters share of the e-book market.
And when some people
look at those statistics, as well as the overall size of these
companies, they think that, well, if America has a corporate
concentration problem or a monopoly problem, then these super
platforms look like the most obvious and serious examples of that
concentration issue.
And there’s
criticism—perhaps it started on the left, but certainly is now
coming from the left and the right.
And there have been
calls for various sorts of regulation and antitrust actions with
maybe the extreme being to turn some of these firms into public
utilities or break them up in some fashion.
Yet these remain
very popular companies along with the services and products. They’re
a source of innovation, high-paying jobs.
And with perhaps the
exception of the shale revolution, it’s just about the only bright
spot in the US
economy over the
past decade.
And, again, public
opinion surveys, so they are—you know, well, if Congress only had
these kind of ratings that that these tech firms have.
You know, 80 percent
favorability rating, 77 percent for Amazon, the most widely admired
companies by young Americans.
And even over the
past year, in which there have been a lot of rough
headlines, whether it’s the Russians using
Facebook to try influence the election or free speech issues at
Google or sexism at Uber,
yet these remain very popular companies.
So what’s going on
and why do some people have
such a problem with these big mega-platforms?
To discuss whether
the rise of the tech giants has become problematic in some way that requires a
policy solution, as I said, we’ve assembled a really excellent
panel.
I’m going to do
them in alphabetical order.
We have Ryan
Hagemann, who is director of technology policy at the Niskanen
Center, where he specialized in issues at the intersection of
sociology, economics, and technology.
Right next to me is
Andrew McAfee, principal research scientist at MIT, where he studies
how digital technologies are changing business, the economy, and
society.
He’s also coauthor
of the recent book“Machine, Platform, Crowd: Harnessing Our Digital
Future” with his compatriot, Erik Brynjolfsson.
At the far end is
Michael Strain, director of economic policy studies here at AEI. His
research focuses on labor economics, public finance, and social
policy.
And last but not
least, Luigi Zingales, director of the George J. Stigler Center for
the Study of the Economy at the University of Chicago.
His research focuses
on regulatory capture, crony capitalism, and the various forms of
subversive competition by special interest groups.
Again, everyone,
thanks for coming.
And I want to start
with Professor Zingales, who earlier this year hosted a conferenceat
the University of Chicago titled “Is there a concentration problem
in America?”
And I watched a good
chunk of that conference over my Thanksgiving weekend, sitting there
for those hour-and-a-half-long panels.
MICHAEL STRAIN:
Giving thanks forthe
American economy.
MR. PETHOKOUKIS:
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Giving thanks.
Well, I was not
doing that.
And during that
conference, a good bit of it focused on the tech industry, which,
again, maybe to at least some people the most obvious examples.
If you believe there
is a concentration monopoly problem, I guess it would be hard to talk
about this issue without talking about the tech industry.
So I want to start
with you to sort of give me what the theory of the case is that these
big platforms, super platforms, whatever you want to call them, that
they’re —I mean, my bias is to see these companies as, gee,
they’re, you know, as something that’s gone right with America,
great national assets, remain (popular ?).
What is the case
that they’re problematic in some way, their size and scope and
influence?
LUIGI ZINGALES:
OK. So, first of all, I
want to make sure that at least we have one common ground, which is
we believe that for free markets to work well, we need to have an
antitrust authority. We need to have some government intervention.
We’re not in a
laissez faire butopia,but at least we are a more —(inaudible)
—society where antitrust plays a role.
And then the
question is what role and when. And, of course, the
question of cost and benefits.
This said, I think
that—and I would like to set aside, even if it’s a big issue, but
I would like to discuss later, this platform as media industry.
Because I think when you talk about media, we need to talk—there is
another set of concerns that plays a role.
But even if we did
not consider them media, and I don’t know why we shouldn’t
consider media, but imagine for a second we don’t consider them
media, I think that especially when I think of Google and Facebook,
the issue about network externalities comes big. And I think it’s
sort of something that deviates from our standard notion of markets
and also our standard notion of antitrust.
If I sell my main product at price zero, what it means to have a market share,
OK?
That’s a pretty basic thing, but it’s quite important.
And so the question is then, however, if we have a sort of market share—(inaudible)—
I offer a glass a wine to whoever uses Bing that does not use Google.
And I generally go around, and I make this offer and never pay any price because nobody, unless you are in China, where you are prohibited from using Google, everybody in the United States, uses Google.
So in terms of market share of searches that represent in the United States is above 90 percent....
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